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I've built three StewMac kit guitars now, all with the dovetail neck joint. I've pretty much mastered fitting them and I actually like the dovetail (big thanks to John Hall and Blues Creek Dovetail Joint videos!).

I'm now moved to my 4th guitar, this one all scratch, and I've glued and cut rough neck blanks. Before I can go any further on these necks, I have to decide between Dovetail or M&T neck joint.

My luthier friend says I'm crazy (he means stupid but he is kind) for doing dovetail joints when "M&T is much easier to fab and repair".

For you guys that have been at this a while, is there a customer preference between the two styles?

Honestly, I don't know the order of steps for a M&T in regard to the neck block holes and the heel inserts, the hole depths, the insert sizes and types, and neck-block routing while I'm well studied on the dovetail process. I don't have the chops yet, due to lack of experience, to see the benefit of going through the learning curve of M&T .

I'm looking for some sound reasoning on why I should do a M&T over a dovetail. I haven't acquired any of the bits/ templates for either yet. The neck block has not been dilled for hardware either. I need to get out of this analysis paralysis... Your perspective on the choice, and customer preference would be much appreciated. I may never have a customer but that is my end goal.....

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Measure Twice,

Karl Borum

For what it's worth, when I exhibited my instruments at the La Conner Guitar Festival in May, not a single attendee out of the many, many attendees I talked with over three days asked what kind of neck joint I use. Not one. And that is a very guitar savvy crowd.

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

You can make up the joints with dummy heel blocks and scrap wood necks, so you can make the joint over and over until you are happy with your process. If you are going to continue building, you might want to try both the M&T and the simple butt joint (with inserts). I started, like you with kits and dovetails. I tried M&T. Almost everything I make now uses simple butt joints for neck attachment. I use a dowel through the heel to give the inserts purchase in something other than endgrain. I seldom have a customer ask about the neck joint and never had one walk away when I explained the butt joint.

I feel like, if you have the chops to do a dovetail perfect, why not? That said, my next guitar will have bolts. I don't personaly understand what needs to be done to attain that level of perfection. Ive done a few but its not enough. Fitting them is easy enough but every time i do one, it needs a little more angle and i end up with low saddles.

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Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!

I've done them all and for about 10 years I only did dovetails. I've since gone back to M&T, it's a bit faster, for me anyway, and I like how easy they are to reset. I've been contemplating going to a butt joint, I've only done one but it's been in the field now for about 10 years with no issues. Like Bob I've had very few clients ask about what type of neck joint the guitar has.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

You’ll never know which you prefer until you try so I’d say go for the bolt-on M&T. It’s my preference mainly for adjustability. If say your instrument settles a little more than expected in the first year it’s a lot easier to tweak the neck set for optimal saddle height with a bolt on.

One caveat, if you decide on a double tenon bolt on like Bourgeois or Taylor they do move a little more under string tension in the first 6-12 months compared to a glued extension.

At least that’s my experience.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I did dovetails on my first four or five then went to bolt on. I likely won’t do another dovetail.

You might also consider a butt joint. Easy to execute and reset.

Sent from my SM-A526B using Tapatalk

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Pat

<I feel like, if you have the chops to do a dovetail perfect, why not?>

Expense and expertise. As the world comes to grips with the fact (IMO) that the neck joint is pretty far down the list of things that are important to tone, more and more folks will build with dovetail alternates, and less repair folks will have experience with dovetails, and those that do will be increasingly expensive. It’s not a kind future gift for your clients to build with a dovetail. Even in today’s market only the pinned Somogyi style straight tenon requiring the ‘California slip’ would be more expensive, though take that as coming from a build centric view rather than repair. Perhaps the Spanish heel would equate.

In a mass manufacture environment, properly laid out with the right tooling, a dovetail takes 60-90 seconds to create. It’s the fastest way, not the best way, (IMO), and if I’m not wrong many manufacturers experimented with dovetail alternates early, only to discover they weren’t the cheapest. So the cheapest became the best, and the marketing followed, and continues to this day. ‘Handmade with a traditional dovetail joint’. Yawn.

<One caveat, if you decide on a double tenon bolt on like Bourgeois or Taylor they do move a little more under string tension in the first 6-12 months compared to a glued extension.>

That tracks with my experience as well. I did dovetails til #47, maybe 20 some odd years ago, then I mentioned to my client that I was switching to M&T at #50 and why I was doing so, and he asked me to switch processes on his guitar. It’s not much different to cut straight tenon than a dovetail, so I did so, and found that there was a LOT of movement, lots of wonk for lots of time til it finally figured itself out., if it even has.

This was around when the Gore/Gilet books came out, and I immediately recognized that there was much work to be done in dialing in ’my’ sound, so I changed modes from ‘how pretty/sellable’ can I make this guitar to, ‘how good can I make this guitar sound’ mode. The gist of that was to remove every single unnecessary step between tonal concept and tonal fruition.

And part of that was to move to a bolt on butt joint, with a glued extension. It has the shear strength to prevent the tongue from sliding forward to maintain geometry, and with an amount of experience can have a neck angle reset in about 15 minutes without having to release the glue on the extension.

The only downside I see is that you have to have a heel shape sufficient to support the inserts.

Anyway, to answer your original questions…

Very rarely at shows do people ask or care about what the neck joint is. Those that do IME are generally favorable to a non dovetail joint, knowing that they’re saving future money and the world has moved on from dovetails.

Those that are hardwired for dovetails as the true source of tone, well, I love how Gibson’s and Martin’s et al sound as well, but maybe the neck joint has nothing to do with it.

But what do I know…

Strong point on what customers ask for that J made so with that said who should be considered here is YOU Karl.

If your first three were dovetails my hat's off to you my friend you have done very well and gone the harder route first. You also now have something that some others may, may lack and that is two things actually. You no longer have a fear of the most eloquent neck joint ever for guitars the simple dovetail. Good going. And two you have full, free choice what you do next.

I did a couple dovetails early on and then settled on a bolt-on neck but if I was to do it all over again and sell guitars I would have done what you are already on a path to do and that is stick with the dovetail and here's why.

1) Tradition! Not in the sense, well maybe of the tune from Fiddler On The Roof but the argument among guitar players AND buyers of high-end acoustic guitars lives on some still believe that a proper dovetail is sonically superior to a bolt-on. Is it? Who knows but the market perception seems to live on. We are still asked about this regularly.

2) Zero dependency on other hardware such as bolts, I used Belvedere washers, inserts, CA etc.

3). Less weight which I found to be pretty important during my building. My best sounding guitars that had the most dynamic headroom and explosive.... volume were the lightest weight ones seemingly. Inertia and Newton, can't take them anywhere....

4). You have a skill set now that also qualifies you to service neck resets and that's a big leg up on most builders who have avoided the dovetail all together and may have never reset one. As such the single most common barrier to some people getting into repair work (which never should be by the way) experience with neck rests of proper dovetail joints you've left in your wake in your approach to building.

One thing I see time and time again here when new builders come to the forum is the desire to invent a better mouse trap. Folks go to all manner of trouble to adopt and then modify some neck joint that they believe will provide a better way forward.

As someone who services the very most traditional of construction methods as well and the new and improved adjustable neck joints even from the most respected makers there is really nothing more eloquent or that works as well over time as a dovetail. With the wood, knowledge, skills and tools you can transform something into a great guitar without ever having to go to the hardware store.

Terry's argument for the ease of minor adjustments is a good one in favor of a bolt-on but how often that needs to happen and if that needs to happen at all is not something that I've experienced personally. I never had to reset a neck joint after setting it.

So one last thing from me. Karl your path has been a bit different already as such seems to me that you have been making great decisions and that says to me as someone who advises people how to approach learning to be a luthier that maybe a hands off approach with you may be a better approach.

If you enjoy the dovetail process I would continue with them at least for now and set your sights on the other 1,000 things that make a great guitar. You can always change out what neck joint you use later but I would stick with a dovetail.

Again good going on your fearless approach and excellent results that's nice to see.

I have been to many shows , for the most part bolt ons are ok on contempory guitars but if your doing a $10000 martin repro it better be dovetail.
I only do dovetails but I learned on them and mastered that joint.
my best advice , if you get into repair you better be good at them as they make you a living. I did 18 resets last month at $500 a pop , thats a good day at the office.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Search for a user called Hesh on this forum. He posted some while ago about how to get the perfect neck angle. I have used his method ever since and it works every time.

I'm not a pro builder but my working career was mostly in furniture and public utilities. Being one of the guys with a tool bag when things go south makes one of my first concerns on any project the next guy with a tool bag following behind me. A lot of that work was spent making the stuff the engineers signed off on actually work.

My first guitar (10 yrs ago) was M&T, second was dovetail and neither was any problem to construct and neither has needed adjustment since. Dovetail success was a result of watching John Halls neck videos so many times it felt like it was already committed to muscle memory before I started! Thanks John, for that and many more of your tutorials.

I went a step further in "maintenance" simplicity and I think tonal improvement by taking the tongue of the fingerboard off the body completely. Only my dovetail guitar has the FB glued down. So I'm obviously not tied to tradition and have much fun experimenting with design. The luxury of not doing this for a living is certainly part of my equation. I think reproductions are in a special class.

Beauty of the M&T bolt-on for me is I can have a neck off in <5 minutes with virtually no chance of damage, I supply the tools to do that with every guitar, an allen wrench.

Fitting neck joints of all kinds is really fun, chalking them into a squeaky tight fit is enjoyable and satisfying, so for me it isn't the process as much as repairability down the road.

So, I end up with a question for the repair and building folks here who have done lots of dovetail resets - 'What percentage are completed without unintended damage?'. If finish or wood damage is part of the process, how much of the typical repair is devoted to those issues? Since about half my reason for using M&T is repairability, maybe my fears in that regard are unfounded.

If someone specifically requested a dovetail, I'd do it, but I'd probably suggest a bolt-on dovetail .

Thanks, good thread, good posts!

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Brian R, Wood Mechanic
N8ZED

You might as well bring up politics as to ask a steel string guitar builder what neck joint to use.

I've built with dovetails, bolt-ons with mortise and tenon, butt joint bolt-ons, a nameless glue-less bolt-on design, and the Gore/Gilet bolt-on, bolt-off design. They all work great. Some buyers don't want anything other than a dovetail, so if those are your potential buyers, keep building with dovetails. Other than that well-trod piece of wisdom, I will offer these bits of info:

1. In my view, the easiest neck joint to build that has no performance downside is the butt joint bolt-on with a glued fingerboard extension. All neck joints need attention to detail to get the fit right, but the butt joint is the easiest to get the fit right, it is easy to take apart (except for the ungluing of the fingerboard extension), and if it fits right, it works just as well as any other neck joint.

2. For a completely glue-less neck joint, my favorite is the Gore/Gilet bolt-on, bolt-off design. It takes more work to build it, but it is solid as solid gets, and the neck comes off in a moment, without any ungluing.

<I did 18 resets last month at $500 a pop , thats a good day at the office.>

The flip side of that is that 18 people had to shell out 500$ for a neck reset, not a particularly good day at the office for them. Although I guess if they’re laying out 10k for a Martin repro they may not care. But since pretty much every single guitar will require a neck reset at some point, if you build with a dovetail you’re baking that into your clients future unless you plan to extend a neck reset into the warranty.

Hesh, you surprise me. You are always so focused on serviceability, yet a dovetail is so much extra work to service. Sure, a skilled tradie can usually get it done without damage, but a dovetail is certainly not the way to go in terms of that aspect…

Like a lot of builders here I have build with (and reset) both dovetails and bolted M&T joints. I'm at the point where I'm comfortable with either and the choice comes down to which one fits the guitar.

If I am building something that doesn't have access to the insides of the box (an archtop with f-holes) the choice is obvious. If I'm trying to stay very close to a vintage design then I'll use whatever it had (usually a dovetail). A classical gets a Spanish heel, just because.

For electrics I do screw on necks if its a fender style, glued long tenon "set neck" for Gibson. I did one bolted butt joint conversion on a Yamaha reset that wouldn't come apart.

Almost everything else will be bolted M&T, multi piece neck for the ease of construction, setting and eventually resetting.

Speaking of resetting, I think that is a good reason to build at least some dovetails, it helps improve your chops for the eventual reset.

If you are considering a butt joint with full bolt-on and bolt down function (i.e. the fingerboard extension is bolted down as well, no glue) - like the Gore & Gilet system - but you want something a bit easier to execute - it is worth checking out this kit. I have used it on a number of guitars and it works well. You can fashion your own components if you prefer (and my neck block is a lot beefier than the one in the photo) but the concept is sound.
http://www.luthierscooltools.com/Tools.htm#Bolt-on

Shouldn't be a surprise at all Ed I'm also an advocate for folks to reexamine the more traditional approach to guitar construction with Martin being my example countless times here. I often speak of people who are new to Lutherie thinking that they are going to build a better mouse trap. That may jog some memories.

Then I go on to say that when all is said and done Martin and how they assemble a traditional acoustic guitar is in my opinion pretty dang hard to beat AND it's also where much of the market is as well in terms of demand. IIRC Martin builds over 150,000 guitars annually. Not all are dovetails but the traditional models and the high end stuff are dovetails.

One last point. Semantics I know but the view of the market toward neck resets has changed and it changed in the last 20 years when I've been a Luthier. A neck reset is no longer consider a "repair" or servicing in the sense that something is broken or went south. It's now considered normal and expected maintenance for some designs and this can include a bolt-on neck.

And really lastly I'll take your $500 Ed and raise you $700. Everyone has their own rates but in our experience neck reset time usually includes some other stuff that should be addressed as well such as a fret dress. A neck should never be removed and reinstalled at a different angle without a proper fret dress. Presumably during the life of the instrument the frets have worn and it'e been set up a few times making all the nut slots now too low at neck reset time too. So include a new bone nut made specifically for this interment to the list of repairs. Bridge plates can be damaged, bridge can be lifting since the extreme angle of a neck that needs to be reset often lifts the back edge of the bridge as par for the course.

All up a neck reset, new nut, bridge reglue, fret dress and at times a crack from the bridge to the tail block and you can be looking at $1,200 - $1,500 at a quality US based shop.

John Hall may be the wealthiest person on the forum after last month

Back to the expected maintenance thing/perception this is underscored by Martin's change in the last 5 years to no longer cover a neck reset under warranty which I always though was nuts anyway and instead call it expected maintenance. How any company can carry that level of liability perhaps 50 years after the sale of a product always blew my mind but they did it for decades which was amazing.

I live in the metro Detroit area home of the US auto industry where your warranty dies when you drive it off the lot so when it starts a fire in your garage and burns your house down you can use your insurance settlement check to go buy a new Martin, dovetail preferred.

One more thing: My first ever neck reset was on a Harmony Sovereign and no damage was done with the neck reset process and no finish touch-up was required and this is not unusual.

The notion that damage during a reset is to be expected is false. Use best practices, know what you are doing and it's entirely possible if not likely that you may not cause any damage.

Now if the dang thing was built to not be serviceable with one example being 70's Guilds or Gibsons that's a different matter. The Guilds had finish sprayed after the neck was set - not a good idea for serviceability. The Gibsons have a very small heel that are known to break off during the neck reset process. But beyond these two you can reset Martins all day with minimal if any damage if you understand the process and take your time.

When you deal with high end guitars pre war martins D40s etc I deal with these higher end guitars all the time , I just got loaded again and have 15 resets for this month , yes the bolt on is often easier but they are seldom used on $10,000 guitars. I did a taylor reset $75 Martin has the new 13 series and you can reset that without taking the string off. You won't make a living on them but they are a fast flip for sure. 2 screws 1 shim your done.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Thanks for some excellent discussions and points of view here.
As always, lots to consider, and a matrix of Pros and Cons for both the owner and the builder.


I should start a new thread about wood movement and how it relates to the bolt-on M&T joint.

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Measure Twice,

Karl Borum

vibration is more an issue and yes the wood moves

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

With systems like the above where the fretboard support tenon is integrated into the neck it would seem that the upper bout angle would have to be coplanar with the neck set angle on the unstrung guitar for the fretboard to be flush with the top, i.e. no drop off.

What happens under string tension both early on and 8-12 months down the line? Ever get a rising extension?

Thanks

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

there seems to be a big misunderstand on resetting a bolt on neck and a dovetail
First off not all bolt on necks are the same.
The neck set process is the same as far as establishing the neck geometry
Taylor uses shims and is a true bolt on
Martins and most other bolt ons as simple in that the fret boards are attached either by glue or screw
the neck have to be trimmed and reattaches
I this is not $50 but a true neck set and will be charged accordingly. If you want to do this as a business you have to learn the skills that make you money , and this is not a bad thing. Be fair in pricing, do quality work you should do well. Some areas charge a lot more than I do, and thats fine. I know a shop in California pays 10 grand a month rent .
ASIA just had a symposium and this subject came up , in how do you make a living in this business. I sell about 10 guitars a year and thats good but it won't pay the bills repair and jigs make my living for me and my son.

all the builders I know use Dovetail
Henderson
Arnold
Young
Key
Wingert
just to name a few but in the traditional world for vintage repros you need to master them and they are not that hard
they are stronger as the joint has a lot more contact and bolt ons are relying on a mechanical fastener . agreed there are some that use bolt on but they are not known for traditional builds and that is fine. You have to find your clientele.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Woke up this morning and got myself a beer.... Relax it's a song lyric....

Wanted to add one more thing if I may please.

Bolt-on necks the bolts do loosen up in time and of course wood compresses too also encouraging bolts to loosen up. I do a lot of set-ups these days and I'm the set-up kid in our shop doing over 600 annually.

On some, not all bolt-on neck guitars the bolts are nearly always either loose or not snug (on their way to being loose). Small builder guitars are often the worse ones with no offense intended. I would strongly suggest that if you do the typical bolt-on that regularly checking bolts in the first year or so would be advisable. My own Heshtones also benefit from snugging the neck bolts perhaps annually.

So part of what I do including guitars where the bolts are hidden such as Seagulls and some Martins with the single bolt that was only intended to hold things in place while glue dried is remove the covers to the bolts and snug them up. Seagulls have a label that with Naphtha you can remove in one piece and reinstall later.

With this said I've never had to snug up a dove tail.... not that you even can.

As such the case could be made that a proper dovetail vs. some bolt-on implementations, not all... does not require the checking and snugging of the bolts and that's a pretty cool thing for the folks who want to go 100 years without needing to visit a luthier.